copy protection schemes

[Shane (Skirky)]

At what point did the research reveal that 20 minutes a side was 'about right'?....after they produced 78s?.... Sorry, can't accept that!

Ever wondered why Deutsche Gramophon LP's had one piece of music (movement) per side? No, really, I'm not making this up.... It's because they were in the business of releasing classical pieces, which had been, over time, worked out at twenty minutes optimum duration till folk started getting restless, calling for ice creams, that sort of thing. All that pop nonsense didn't come along till way later. You just can't get the shellac since the war, incidentally...

[Chris]

Ever wondered why Deutsche Gramophon LP's had one piece of music (movement) per side? No, really, I'm not making this up....

I know you're not making it up.....I knew that too....

But what I thought I knew - and it's borne out by the fact that DG started producing 78s before the 33s - was that this research was done before producing 78s....in other words, the optimum was the length of 2x78s, not 2x33s.

Then technology overtook the research.....

[Shane (Skirky)]

because that was the only technology available at the time. ok, so you're right...again...

[Steve]

I recall a few 33's did last up to about 30min per side, but these were of the Ktel cheap compilation variety. They did it by sqeezing the grooves closer together and to do that they had to seriously restrict the dynamic range. but then these discs were not sold to music lovers, or for that matter people with any taste whatsoever, so they got away with it.

20 min per side was about right, for whatever reason.

Steve

[David Andrews]

I doubt you're referring to the same CDs though in this case.... If so - where? Bit of a generalisation there....
On the other hand, I've seen the self-same CDs that you do list above for 9 quid or less - these days one is very silly if you don't shop around.

Well, thankfully, not much of the FC stock costs above a tenner.... but I got The Wood And The Wire from MVC in Barnsley when I was visiting folks there, and it was 15 quid, all bar the penny.  No doubt, I could have got it cheaper, but would have had to order it.... MVC isn't a cheap place, like any chain outlet.

[Anna]

Just to drag this a bit closer to on-topic (re; copying anyway), and to add some data to the "attitudes" survey.  My first FC album was a copy of The Wood and The Wire given to me by my father immediately after my first FC gig...

I now have a good dozen FC albums/compliations, but have never quite gotten around to buying an official copy of TW&TW...  Although I do mean to cos I miss the sleeve notes, and especially the credits as to who does what on each track...

And I've been to Cropredy and 2 further gigs and joined this happy place in the 2 years since that seminal day....  Or is it just one year?   Could well be, you know!

In my particular case, I think they've gained more than they've lost.  Oh for the good old days when one would spend all day with a bunch of albums and a cassette putting together a 90 minute compliation for a friend of "stuff I think you'll like"...  There was an honesty to the old hand-written inlay cards.  It all gets a bit grey and fuzzy now the artwork can be so easily copied along with the music.  And I will NEVER support the mass-production of ripped-off CDs that you get in markets etc...

[Athelek]

I kinda disagree with the idea that bootlegged albums are costly to small bands. If they're too small to get TV/Radio airtime, then the easiest way for them to build a big fan base is for people who have the CD to copy it round. If there are only 10 or 20 copies sold to whichever record shop, then they'll run out too soon for it to have a big impact.

Once the bands have a big fan base, then of course it is in their interest to remove all copies of their music. And yes, that music is their work, and copying it is immoral etc. etc. I don't disagree with that - but I still have copied/ripped albums.

If there was a local band and I wanted their CD, I'd check out a borrowed/copied CD, and then if it appealed, I'd go out and buy the CD. But when it comes to bands like Metallica whining that they can't afford to feed their children because of people copying their albums, I just lose all sympathy for the record companies and the bands that do that.

Shifting to real life, the first folk I listened to [save Steeleye live, when I was aged.. small] was on a compilation tape that Kaylakins made for me. And yes, that is copying. And illegal. But given that the amount of money I have/will continue to put back into those bands is far higher than what they lost, I think that much is to be encouraged.

Being poor and studenty, and having poor and studenty friends, the act of buying a CD, ripping and then returning it is fairly commonplace. I'm not entirely sure where I stand on that, but my opinion on that I guess is similar. It just seems a bit cheekier.

[Anna]

Not to mention my Tull collection, upwards of 15 CDs and growing, all because of the loan of a copy of a compilation...

I'll get me coat now.

[Liam Schwilik]

Steve!

I'm sure  we have met before/ perhaps it was in atent at cropredy? I know your face...

Cheers,

Mark

[Shane (Skirky)]

I kinda disagree with the idea that bootlegged albums are costly to small bands. If they're too small to get TV/Radio airtime, then the easiest way for them to build a big fan base is for people who have the CD to copy it round. If there are only 10 or 20 copies sold to whichever record shop, then they'll run out too soon for it to have a big impact.

Once the bands have a big fan base, then of course it is in their interest to remove all copies of their music. And yes, that music is their work, and copying it is immoral etc. etc. I don't disagree with that - but I still have copied/ripped albums.

Being poor and studenty, and having poor and studenty friends, the act of buying a CD, ripping and then returning it is fairly commonplace. I'm not entirely sure where I stand on that, but my opinion on that I guess is similar. It just seems a bit cheekier.

Some interesting issues there - not least the suggestion that creating a large fan base, few of whom have actually bought anything, would help a 'small band' in the short term. Personally, I'd prefer if we in SftBH could afford to pay the studio, inlay printer, CD manufacturer etc, but I'm willing to listen to all theories and suggestions. I'm also a bit confused at where the the cut off point is at which a band becomes 'big' and then can start retrieving pirate copies and then, presumably, go out the other side of bigness (become 'huge'?) and are to be criticised for 'whining' about copying  . However, although I fully agree that a copied best-of from a friend can be a gateway to a whole universe of buying-ness, frankly, being poor and/or studenty doesn't give you any more right or moral justification to burn half a dozen copies of (say) Dave Swarbrick's last album, than not being arsed to queue at a merchandise stand does. As I say, I'm open to persuasion, after all, that's one of the points of being here and taking part in the first place 
Cheers
Skirky   

[Andy]

You can get CD's that can be printed onto direct - neither they or the printers to do that are expensive. As to a CD manufacturer, how many were you thinking of running off? Any decent home pc system can create 20-30 CD's a day and the boxes to produce multiples at once are not that expensive either.

A quick look at google immediatly showed several commercial cd-copiers, http://www.rivierapublishing.co.uk/ being one example.

[jude]

I wasn't quite sure what to say on this issue, but I think you've just about got it right Shane.

Thankyou

Jude

[Shane (Skirky)]

You can get CD's that can be printed onto direct - neither they or the printers to do that are expensive. As to a CD manufacturer, how many were you thinking of running off? Any decent home pc system can create 20-30 CD's a day and the boxes to produce multiples at once are not that expensive either.

A quick look at google immediatly showed several commercial cd-copiers, http://www.rivierapublishing.co.uk/ being one example.

Still not 'free' though, are they?  
We learned a lot from the first album and we'll be doing things slightly differently for the new one.
Cheers
SK

[Andy]

Nothing is free, not even if you do it yourself. At least you'll know your costs and be able to calculate a reasonable price so that you can break even or make a profit on the sale of some CD's.

[James SftBH]

Cheers Andy, some more to think about...

[Steve]

Steve!

I'm sure  we have met before/ perhaps it was in atent at cropredy? I know your face...

Cheers,

Mark

Well spotted, Mark. We have met, at Cropredy last year, in a tent. Can you remember which tent?

[Liam Schwilik]

Hi Andy,

Well, the tent I spend most of my time in is David Hughes's?

Mark

[Steve]

Hi Andy,

Well, the tent I spend most of my time in is David Hughes's?

Mark

That's the one. The best tent to be in. Not quite as good as a shed of course (sorry, way off topic!)

Steve
(not Andy)

[mikec]

Dragging this back on topic (well trying too  )

Copy protection schemes suck. If I've bought the LP/Tape/CD/DVD then its mine to do with as I please!

cheers

MikeC

[Liam Schwilik]

Well said Mike!