analogue v digital

[whistler]

I caught the end of a Michael Parkinson show with an interview with Elton John - flicking round the channels as you do on a Saturday night.

Elton John made a comment about analogue recording using tape sounding 'warmer' than digital.  I can't relate to this, perhaps because of the quality of my tape player  or more likely my ears.  Do you think that digital recordings can emulate analugue qualities so that you can't tell the difference?

Thanks very much for the work you've put in here - I haven't read all the posts yet but have found the ones I have  very interesting and hope they won't disppear so that I can read them as time allows.

[David Andrews]

Hi Whistler...

You might find this thread interesting from about halfway down page one... http://www.talkawhile.co.uk/yabbse/index.php?topic=9687.0

Mark and I look at this issue and I think some others contributed a fair bit to the discussion too....

[Jim]

ive heard all this guff from hifi buffs for years now,"theres no bass on cd's" etc all that rubbish
    oh how we loved listening to live at leeds when just as one of the albums quiet bits arrive a bloody great scratch ruined it,when i got the cd i was waiting for the clicks but lo and behold they never came
   and cassettes,dont start me on cassettes,play 2 or 3 times  and the machine gobbled the tape up,or that copy of endless by heaven 17 that only ever played at 2/3 speed
 cds were the best thing that evr happened up till the advent of computers with great big hard drives to store all your cd's and lo and behold there's space in the back room where the piles of cds were
 give me digital any time
dont start me on Elton effing john either,what a get
  

[Cocker Freeman]

Hi Whistler...

You might find this thread interesting from about halfway down page one... http://www.talkawhile.co.uk/yabbse/index.php?topic=9687.0

Mark and I look at this issue and I think some others contributed a fair bit to the discussion too....

Yes and I think Mark gained quite a lot from the discussion too.

[Liam Schwilik]

Thanks Whistler,

In a nutshell - I like both for different things and reasons. As final medium Digital is great. I certainly would not want to be carrying my current Itunes catalogue around if it were on 1/2" tape?

Mark

[Steve]

Analogue vs digital. Hmm.

When I were a lad, in the '60s, it were all steam powered. Some of it was clockwork too. A steel needle in a shellac(?) disc. It was ****. Vinyl and diamond is much better. But they all scratch and click.

Tape is better in some ways, worse in others.

The point is they all add distortion. None reproduce the sound faithfully. Some get very close and sound good, and we get used to the 'sound' they make. Then a new technology comes along and it sounds different.

Sometimes a new technology starts off sounding different because it is significantly worse. Early transistor amplifiers had awefull crossover distorsion, and were not as good as valve amps. Few people now argue that valve amps sound better (ok, I know a few still do).

Sometimes a form of distortion is a fundamental part of the sound. Electric guitars played through specific amps or fuzz boxes.

But the job of the recording medium and equipment is to reproduce the sound as accurately as possible. CDs do that as nearly to perfectly as makes no difference. Sometimes that means you can hear nasty things that get lost on disc or tape.

But despite all that, in most domestic systems the speakers make more difference than the rest put together.

And, in the end (...the love you get is equal to the love you make...) it's the music that really matters. If you enjoy it, the rest is unimportant.

Steve (playing Led Zep III, Since I've been loving you, on CD)

[James SftBH]

I just love digital, end of. It sounds the same in my house as it did in the studio whereas in the vinyl days it never did.

1s and 0s baby, can't be beat....pure, simple, effective and natural as far your ears will ever notice.

[Liam Schwilik]

(Homer like) - Uhhhhmmmmm, distortion!

Nothing wrong with a little squaring of the sign waves, rock and roll is built on it!

[David Andrews]

I have a theory that the best way for things would be AAD or ADD where the first link in the chain is the multitrack, and the next is the mixer and the third is the mixdown/mastering medium.

This way, the warmth that comes from analogue tape is preserved and, if mixdown is via an analogue mixer, then the very nice non-clinical feel of the EQ is also preserved, and yet the final product is nicely and compactly kept on a digital medium which has better wear and tear characteristics than any analogue final product.

The think Mark mentions about sine waves, and squaring them... the whole thing about digital playback is based (at the output of the ADC) on essentally an approximate reconstruction of a sine wave (or, at least, a complex waveform composed of a theoretically infinite number of sine waves!) using a variable amplitude square wave... before this reaches your ears (and if this were to reach your ears, it'd be horrible to listen to!), it is passed through a filter whose mathematical function is to smooth off the square wave components' edges (integration), thereby slightly approximating the original analogue waveform as recorded on tape.  This is, and I trust that Mark will correct me if I am wrong, where word-length comes in, as far as 8-bit, 16-bit and 24-bit resolution.  The increasing word-length allows for less squarewave type distortion at the output of the ADC, and means that the time-constant on the integrator can be smaller and, therefore, that the reaction of the integrator can be quicker when presented with the ADC output signal... leading to a more accurate reconstruction of the original analogue signal... which is infinitely more pleasing to the ear than the ADC output signal could ever be.

In a sense, the digital component is only the way in which the music is stored on a medium; the sound you get going into - and coming out of - the process is actually analogue.

My god!  All that without notes!

And me all knackered and tired on account of having secondary allergies clogging my throat up.  What would I be like if I weren't so bleeding ill???!!!

[Steve]

All good stuff. I'll try to add to this tomorrow or Sunday, when I have more time. I think Mark (Liam), James and David all have good points. 

There's nothing quite like a fair and reasoned debate of someones deeply entrenched views, is there?

Steve

[James SftBH]

(Homer like) - Uhhhhmmmmm, distortion!

Nothing wrong with a little squaring of the sign waves, rock and roll is built on it!

I too am a great fan of distortion, but I'd like it to be added by the player/engineer, not by the playback medium. 

[Anna]

Non-Techie/pleb viewpoint...

I can't honestly say I can tell the difference much really.  A nice new LP (before I scratch it to within an inch of its life) always sounded as good as a CD to me.  Admittedly I never had the same album on both LP and CD so couldn't do a direct comparison.  There's a bit of a glitch somewhere in my CD ripping process at the minute that sometimes puts clicks and odd noises onto my MP3 player so I feel right at home anyway.

I think I agree with whoever said earlier that the speakers make as much difference as anything else.  With my current system which is nothing special and is running pathetic speaker leads, I'm hard pushed to tell the difference between CD and tape unless the tape is really worn out.

But overall I prefer digital.  Simply because of the convenience factor.  I don't know how I'd survive without my MP3 player nowadays!  And I just put a playlist together with 20 or so songs from across my entire collection, in about 1 minute flat, to suit my exact mood right now.  You can't do that without digital!

[MarkV]

I bought the Led Zep remasters box set when it came out, and listening to it on headphones was amazed to hear multi layers of guitars playing on a track(cant remember which one!) which I had never heard before!  The electric was there , but so were various acoustics that I had had not noticed before.

Have listened to it time and time again but never hear the extra layers. Do ears become accustomed to things or is it just age slowly closing down the receptors?

[Liam Schwilik]

Pardon,

No, it's just headphones bring out and highlight certain things that speakers don't. Listening at high levels can make things in the balance sound very different also. As can listening really quietly.

The older I get, the more I appreciate the really quiet listen, as if emanating from a mono radio at the 6.30am wake up

[tony the roundhead]

I love playing old vinyl on my Linn Axis turntable. Of course its not as convenient as my cds, minidiscs, or mp3s but that's part of the experiencel The fact that you have to make an effort, set up the arm, adjusdt the stylus, keep the records clean. Even getting up from the sofa while you're halfway through a bottle of claret to turn the disc over all add to the experience. And probably make you listen that bit closer than something you can just remotely pause while you pop off to make a coffee.

[David Andrews]

I love playing old vinyl on my Linn Axis turntable. Of course its not as convenient as my cds, minidiscs, or mp3s but that's part of the experiencel The fact that you have to make an effort, set up the arm, adjusdt the stylus, keep the records clean. Even getting up from the sofa while you're halfway through a bottle of claret to turn the disc over all add to the experience. And probably make you listen that bit closer than something you can just remotely pause while you pop off to make a coffee.

In other words, the experience isn't just technical... it's also the things that you do along with the listening?

Yeh, I'd go for that 100%... I'm in no doubt that we aren't made just to consume.. there's little rituals that we built up around our consumption habits... for example, drinking alcohol in a pub with friends and/or a good book rather than at home alone (except, as Tony just said, the occasional bottle of claret or whatever at home when listening to music... and maybe even enjoying the solitude in that).

There is a strong active psychological thing going off when we do anything that seems like a passive pursuit, with all these little rituals and other behaviours we engage in.  "Setting up my stall" is my thing: getting my listening environment right as possible, and then having certain things to hand, and ensuring a break in the procedings by having some alcohol in the mix... listening on headphones (by preference... auditory integrations problem!) ensures that I don't have listening to do when I go, say, to make a cup of tea... or do anything else, for that matter!

I would have to say that I'd find listening (as a totally passive enterprise) utterly boring.

[Liam Schwilik]

I'm assuming that passive means you are not actually listening?

[Sandra]

I recall, when CDs first appeared, listening to some of my favourite albums (before remastering) and swearing that the evil format of CD would never pass our threshold. The sound was just too different. Obviously we eventually succumbed (especially as production of vinyl wound down and releases became available on CD format only).

We now have many albums on both vinyl and CD (and sometimes on tape and DVD as well, but let us not digress), with a variety of playing devices from the good to the downright ugly. In addition we have a very few mono (that are just about still playable) and stereo versions of the same album. The difference between a mono vinyl/stereo vinyl/CD copies of most albums is obviously marked, and in some cases it almost does not sound like the same album, but I would not expect them to sound the same. After all, I would not expect, say, a 1960s radio to sound like a modern digital one. However, this is not to say that any one of the mediums is 'better' than the other.

I find that the mood I am in and the sort of sound I want very often dictates the medium and what I play it on.

For example, if I want to listen to Led Zep or Thin Lizzy sounding really 'dirty' and loud (akin, I suppose, to how I THINK they sounded live), I will play the stereo vinyl and listen to the overall 'feel'. If I want to listen to all the nuances then I will sit down with a drink and listen carefully to the CD version via the 'proper' stereo. The vinyl version, listened to carefully on the same set up can be another experience altogether.

Also, I DO like to have music on in the background whilst I do something else (I suppose this is what David means by  'passive' listening). However, I do not find it passive at all, but rather can sometimes let my mind tune in and out and pick up a new experience. It is also usually a great mood enhancer and can make a dull chore less so, or a great experience more so.

After all, how many of us associate a piece of music with something else, such as a particular experience or a great film. Often hearing the music becomes the trigger to a memory, even though you  might not have been aware of what was playing at the time, so the listening experience could not have been totally passive.

Sandra

[David Andrews]

I'm assuming that passive means you are not actually listening?

As in just letting it flow over one, or even as just sitting there and having nothing to do but listen... this is a difficult one to define... I suppose there's "hearing" (which, in essence, you brilliantly define very simply!), and there's listening but doing nothing else along with it (i.e., missing out on the things that mean you have to actively listen.... again, not a satisfactory definition from me... mea culpa, but I'm very ill today).

I suppose I mean removing from the process all those activities that lead to making the act of listening an enjoyable process....

[Liam Schwilik]

I find all of this very interesting. How people listen, what they listen on. It proves that it's all about perception.  I hear your point Andy, however I also agree with Sandy - Quote: Also, I DO like to have music on in the background whilst I do something else.

I have to have many types of ears in order to survive a working day in the studio, let alone a month or more...  By that, I mean I listen in different ways, all the time, for different reasons. I Change my listening perspective constantly, as with the speakers I listen on. There is no definitive way to listen? Analytical, engineering, as a job listen yes, but that's boring if you do it all the time.

That's why I don't really worry about analogue or digital, or the speakers I'm listening on much, providing my reference and judgement is credible.  It's the music that counts.