Incestuous folk music

[David W]

Hi Simon,

Within the folk (rock) world there seems to be a pretty incestuous relationship between bands, your involvement with LJE, E2, Albions etc. Miranda Sykes now with LJE and playing with Show of Hands and having Maart in her own band. The whole Fairport / Albion line ups over the years. The list can go on whereby a relatively small group of musicians seems to be the core of an entire genre.

Any ideas why this is and how do younger musicians break into the family?

Jackdaw

[Simon Care]

What a great question. To answer it is not so easy.
Firstly, myself or Gareth Turner or Miranda or Kellie While or Joe Broughton and others are all under 40 and were not born playing with these bands.
We have all worked our way through the clubs etc etc and eventually worked with people who thought we were good enough to take a place in these top bands.

As for new faces well, it is still happening. Take Tiny Tin Lady for instance, Iscedwr, wRants , Cave are all snapping at our heels waiting for the big gigs to come along.

I personally feel that good quality musicians always rise to the top. It certainly is'nt a silver spoon syndrome........it takes a lot of hard work and dedication.

Does that make sense.

Simon

[Maart]

I remember listening to a Dave Swarbrick interview about 1974 when he was asked the same question. He said something to the effect of, "Well we all know each other and enjoy each others' playing. There will be younger people coming through but they seem to like a different kind of music. Maybe we're just lumbered with each other because no one else can play this kind of music."

I was listening to it on the radio in a cafe in Huddersfield where I was at music college, trying not to shout "I can do it too!" I don't really know how I eventually got to play with my heroes (and still do) but I think a lot of it is like Simon says:

"We have all worked our way through the clubs etc etc and eventually worked with people who thought we were good enough to take a place in these top bands....... it takes a lot of hard work and dedication."

You have to be driven to make it in music, obsessed in fact. And how many of us in these bands actually feel that we've "made it"? Do people like Ralph McTell or Ian Anderson feel that they have? That's not why we did it. If you want that you can take part in the lottery of the 15 minutes of fame that is X Factor etc. It won't last and it won't bring you happiness.

There are some great musicians coming through now. Miranda is a good case in point. She's an excellent bass player (speaking as a bass player) and certainly not scared to ask for a gig or ask anyone to play alongside her. She has great energy, presence and a great singing voice and she'll last the course.

There's Angus Lyon, mid-20s, six times British accordion player and someone I'm proud to call a friend and I was glad to be able to recommend him for the Yusuf Islam sessions and the Distant Shore sessions. He fits in with the likes of Danny Thompson and Peter Knight because he is driven, like Miranda, like Danny and Peter and Simon, and like the rest of us.

Discuss...

[jude]

And in my case there was quite a bit of being in the right place at the exact right moment and saying 'yes, why not?'

Plus, of course, a lot of hard (but fun) work and a lot of hard ( and mostly fun) travelling.............

Jude

[Curt]

I think for younger players its often hard to find a critical mass of folk interested other musos to form a band - folk clubs are not as plentiful as in the past and even irish sessions in spit and saw dust pubs seem to all be professional musicians paid for their attendance these days.

[Goaty]

...and even irish sessions in spit and saw dust pubs seem to all be professional musicians paid for their attendance these days.

Is that really the case down there Curt ?  All of them ?  If so,   

Look harder and tell us all it's not true    And if it is, consider moving elsewhere

(Sorry - off topic I know)

[Maart]

I think for younger players its often hard to find a critical mass of folk interested other musos to form a band - folk clubs are not as plentiful as in the past and even irish sessions in spit and saw dust pubs seem to all be professional musicians paid for their attendance these days.

I'm afraid that that is very true. When I was doing my "apprenticeship" round the folk clubs in Manchester and West Yorkshire there was a choice of about eight folk clubs every night that you could go to. Unfortunately they mostly charged 40p ("Do you think we can charge £2.50 for Martin Carthy?") to get in. This does not instil the passing trade with any confidence. "If it's cheaper than the price of a pint, then it probably isn't worth it." This in my opinion is one of the reasons why a lot of folk clubs died the death and only the great from that period are still working.

Let's not forget also that pop and rock, even (gasp!) prog music were going through a particularly strong phase back then too. The 70s was a decade of amazingly open-mindedness about music. Along came disco and punk, both necessary and vital, but unfortunately the record companies moved in and homogenised everything. People took sides, and that was the end of Britain leading the way.

The 80s had some good stuff but so much dross. And where did the young folk people play then? Did they have to wear strange clothes and makeup? I don't know. was either very stoned or working very hard.

I think maybe that sessions had died out in general or become the reserve of the older traditional player in most pubs by the late sixties and it was the young turks, the likes of Planxty, Stivell, Swarb, etc, that got some of us younger people involved again. Mike Harding in particular I always thought of as a catalyst in the Manchester sessions.

Later on when the number of folk clubs had dwindled and I still found myself the youngest in the room at 44, I remember talking to a colleague about this very thing and he said, "So what happens in twenty years time? There'll be no-one to play to coz they'll all be dead."

I think it's great that there are some great young players coming though now, Miranda Sykes, Angus Lyon, Harriett Bartlett, Gwenan Gibbard, Joe Wright, etc We all have to support them if any of us believe in the future of the past. Why can't we get the young people to like it too? Just needs someone with the media free rein of the likes of a Simon CowHell to manufacture such a band and wouldn't that be great? No, but it might get the kids interested in the heritage of the tradition.

Blah blah don't listen to me, I'm a rocker, but very grateful for my apprenticeship in the folkclubs of the 70s (Old f**t)...

[Simon Care]

It is very interesting to read these views.
Curt said it was difficult to find folk interested musos.........maybe thats where we are going wrong sometimes....perhaps we should be approaching all types of musos and seeing what they can bring to our genre.
For instance, in Edward II there were only two bonafide folk musicians......together with three reggae and three jazz guys. But, boy did it work!

[Polly Oxford (Andie)]

   But, boy did it work!      Oh Yes it really did!!

I often feel slightly awkward trying to explain what sort of music I like, when really it's just GOOD MUSIC, and recently I've found that the best most accessible, talented music makers tend to congregate in a field in Oxfordshire, and if the overall banner is 'Folk' then that's what it must be,~ but there's one hell of a lot of variety under that banner, and I for one just love it.
(Mind you the questioner then looks at me and replies: 'but you go out wearing bells in public, don't you?')