TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

This question is not really aimed at Simon, rather it's one for the rest of Talkawhile:

Collectively, Talkawhilers know their Folk Rock - and we're good at arguing the relative merits of different stuff by different bands. So, based on Simon's preference for slower and more open music, lets see what's there: Which Folk Rock tracks do we think have space? Which tracks 'groove'? And which tracks would benefit from being given a Simon Emmerson groove treatment?

Cheers

Nick

Well now, if you want "groove" from a "folk" performer, my vote goes to, of course, John Martyn and band. They groove like bastards. They leave space like bastards and there's definitely nothing rigid involved.

Then again, John Martyn would probably give you the Glasgow kiss if you called what he did "folk rock". But, could you add a fiddle to it, do you think?

Yep. Chris Leslie would have a go for one.

Sailors Life is one of the sparsest I think - I could really imagine that being worked on a bit

David W

Yeah, there's plenty of songs that could groove.

I'm not sure that it actually grooves though but I'm not clear what we really mean by the term.

Something like On The Edge by the Oysterband or dare I say even Cropredy Capers/The Frog Up The Pump from Fairport's Gottle O Gear would probably fit my definition.

Fishermans Blues by the Waterboys

Come All Ye. Swings like the Clappers. If I've understood the concept correctly. Anything with de-diddly after Dum Dum Dum is ok with me.

I've always wondered how 'The Lobster' might have developed if it had ever been redone.

Probably FolkJazz. Or FolkProg

Actually I've never really got the hang of Folk Rock either ;D

Holy God Almighty the Lord High King of Glory and All the Angels and Saints preserve us.!!!!!! No, please No! That's a step too far  :o



 ;D

good call hicks.

and i'm a folky rockster and I am groove 8)

Where is your sense of adventure Rory? ;D

A lot of the Aggies stuff really grooves  ;D 8)

Pentangle, it could be argued, did folkprog as well as folkjazz.

The Aggies certainly can groove, I think they get that from their guitarist.

Now, when it comes to folkhiphop...

One of the big daddy tunes of folk rock Matty Groves grooves.  "Matty Grooves" indeed!  Tam Lin too.

The Waterboys, as have been noted, often have a swing in their step when playing trad or trad influenced material.

Jules

The music from Spring/Autumn Watch.. that grooves too...

yes indeedy!

And whilst we're at it - how about some of Seth Lakeman or Bellowhead?

I quite like a bit of AcidJazzFolk in the evenings  :)

may i stick my neck out and suggest that simon's definition of groovin may be quite different from a lot of other people's? :-X

Dangerous stuff groovin', it can easily lapse into noodlin' and I hate noodlin'.  :P

The finest/only exponent of folk/jazz/prog/rock/groove is Pentangle (in all it's forms).

most of the above mentioned choons swing rather than groove,imho
eg "fishermans blues" and "come all ye" swing like bitches but something like "got to give it up" by Marvin Gaye is a stone groove  O0

btw Simon, while im not too well up on afro celts i did see a bit of film a year or two ago on tv when Desi Donnelly was in the band and the indian(?) drummer and it was wonderful, some of the best stuff ive seen on tv for ages, now that swung and grooved 8)

Ah. I thought I might not have grasped it. What about Sloth?

Blackwaterside by Sandy Denny definitely grooves.

Jules

Oh and many of Sinead's folk rock things groove.  That Sean-Nos Nua album is a great marriage of trad Irish folk and subtle dance grooves.

Jules

So we're Groove Armada than Get In the Groove (Madonna)?

I think Eliza's version of Worcester City really grooves

Stuff like When I was On Horseback by Steeleye and the 'Full House' version of Bonny Bunch of Roses, both leave a lot of space, but don't really groove. Whereas John Ridley by The Demon Barbers definately grooves  O0

i'm more of a traditional man meself...personally i do like FC stuff from the sixties and a bit- but when people like RT play electric- it aint folk to me........i always thought RT was just a mellow rock guitar/singer kinda thing.

now for grooves......thats another ball park-  the three  bands to me that groove out in a folky style big time are : shooglenifty and Peatbog Faeries, and the demon barbers.

http://www.myspace.com/geoffreykelly

Play 'Sunflower Girl', that grooves.

Blimey what have I started! Good to get such a comprehensive list of music from the experts and fans that err......I haven't heard off or listened too so aren't really qualified to make any comments at all on this whole area of music. I will spend the weekend at my mates listening to a selection of 'folk rock' and give you my honest feed back. But I am not an expert, I am not that familiar with the genre, but I am open minded...but not so opened minded my brains will fall out in trying to accommodate everyone, I hope.....
Simon

I wish I understood the question.......... :-[

err, me too.   ;D

I just like what I like, don't know what it's called.

I'm with Shirl and Annie. Tracks that have space? A 'groove'?

It either works or it don't.

To me space = sparseness, i.e. what is not played (but could easily be) is almost as relevant as what is.  Not a constant stream of similar volume / instrumentation, gaps 'n changes 'n dynamics 'n stuff...

Groove = swing, but slightly more laid back and with fatter bass ;)

I dunno, err, Gershwin swings, Afro Celts groove, Floyd have space,  Santana does the lot ???

But yeah, ultimately, if it sounds good, it is good...

Well, in that case the king of space was Art Tatum.

Grooves, tapping the table, short strokes, driving beats, Riffs with verses and breaks and solos stuck on top. JJ Cale or Superstition by Stevie Wonder, Lots of Average White Band. Parliament. Swing, Waving yer arms about in a big Swingy way, Stephane Grapelli but not Yehudi Menuhin. Obviously Glenn Miller,and Frank, and of course Come All Ye. How's that?

Well, err, thanks all. I think that gives me food (and music) for thought at the very least. :D {:-)

Not really folk-rock, but these guys groove - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1nhq2RUYFqY  O0

La Bottine Souriante - a Quebecois folk group, kinda like Bellowhead.

They certainly do Ollie... The Smiling Boot.. what a name!  What a sound they make .. live!!

Deamon barbers version of 'Finest Flower of Serving Men' not only grooves, but is ProgFolk as well!

The original Matty has a groove to it..

I said that!  And It's true.  It does.

Jules

When Keith Richards was asked back in 1988 what he thought of Acid House he replied every generation has it's own groove and it's not his job to stand in judgment and tut in disapproval when the beats change, which is a good way of avoiding the issue. The groove behind our version of Tam Lyn is called Dub Step, it pushes and pulls the half time dub feel whilst keeping the double time drum and bass pulse at the centre. It's all based around tension as the beat almost falls apart only to be pulled back. Andy G our drummer is a master at playing this kind of stuff live. At times you think he's losing the beat but this is deliberate; he always pulls it back on the downbeat. The big pay off is when you eventually hit the double time drum and bass grove and in the case of our live version of Tam Lyn this is when we eventually get to play "The Stains Morris"  tune on the outro. Dub step was invented by the most recent generation of midi aware computer based composers in the council estates of Bow, East London and areas of West London and came as a reaction to what I consider the most soul less 'soul music' in the world 'house music', which is based around a boring 4 to the floor bass drum, **** high hat patterns and some repetitive sampled vocal hook. Andy G rates Dave Mattacks as one of the best drummers in the world but has only recently discovered him through the Imagined Village. I've just checked out Fairport’s Tam Lyn and interestingly it also has a bizarre time signature having alternating bar counts of 6 and 7 putting it in a 13/8 time signature. Dave M makes it all sound effortless and the grove is indeed extraordinary. Another revelations in my quest for a folk rock grove is Pentangles live album Basket of Light. 'Light Flight' the 1st track has an amazing grove set up by Danny Thompson and Drummer Terry Cox. It starts in 6/4 then you have alternating bars of 5 and 7 that makes 12, so the beat can always still slip back to 6/4 but basically you have alternating bars of 5/8 and 7/8. Totally mental. Sorry to sound like some crazed musicologist but it's interesting how both these bands were classified in their time as 'folk' but both were searching for new forms of re-presenting traditional music that avoided plodding 4/4 rock groves. There are some forms of music that are really NOT meant to grove. The best Punk Rock drummers sounded like they were building a garden shed or falling down the stairs until the Clash covered Junior Murvins "Police and Thieves" and you got this strange fusion of Punk/Dub and reggae (any one remembers the Ruts) that eventually produced the biggest selling UK Post Punk cross over band in the world The Police. But their drummer Stuart Copeland was notoriously bad at keeping time. When we started work remixing Tiger Moths track the Sloe Benga for the IV CD there really was no consistent grove or tempo in the original recording. When I mentioned this to band leader and fRoots editor Ian Anderson he said "why do you think we called it rouge folk, of course there's no groove, was there any groove in Punk Rock?” Good point. We eventually found a sweet spot on the multi track were the tempo settled and we used this to rebuild the track for the re-mix. When Rod Stradling came in to redo his melodium parts he swung like a demon and we based the whole new grove around his swing feel. Which is the English country-dance swing. You can hear the results on the IV CD. It was by far the most difficult track to do but also the most rewarding as we were spanning 20 years of music in remixing the original but at the end of it I got a feeling I really understood how and why English trad dance music swings.

Great post Simon - interesting stuff.

Jules