TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

I'm sure I read somewhere (?) that Richard Thompson refuses to play Farewell farewell, due to the connotations that the song brings, and that the nearest he has got when requested is playing Willy o'Wensbury (sic). Can anyone set me right on this?

I'm sure that this is going to be one awesome Cropredy..... ;D

Cheers

Adam



Edit: This was snipped from the Cropredy Headliners thread. It's an interesting discussion and worth a thread of its own... Cheers!

There's a comment along those lines in one of the reviews of L&L on Amazon:

"The album also contains some fine original material in "Crazy Man Michael" and Thompson's moving "Farewell Farewell" which was based on the traditional tune "Willie O'Winsbury" and is supposedly inspired by the band's tragedy (he never sang the song live and even recently when appearing at a request show in New York, he chose to play "Willie O'Winsbury" when "Farewell Farewell" was requested)."

Guess we'll find out in August, though I'm fine with whatever RT wants to do...

Presumably, Chris While will sing it as it was Sandy's vocals. If RT plays WoW, the tune should fit.

LOL - He's not wrong you know....  ;)

I've only just realised that Willy O' Winsbury and Farewell, Farewell had the same tune! :-[

My excuse is that I heard Willy O'Winsbury on a Pentangle CD and didn't hear Farewell, Farewell until, um, decades later ;D

I only found out at Big Session last year when Martha Tilston did Willy o Winsbury.  Half asleep and drifting, due to the beer not the music, and suddenly this tune impinged on my subconsious, woke like a vampire at sunset!

 :o :o :o

That is so spooky, I just logged on to find if there was a thread about this very subject (Willy O Windsbury/ Farewell Farewell) like there is on the Matty Groves song. My assumption has always been that RT took a trad tune and wrote new words to it. Does anyone know any different?

It's certainly a trad tune, though Richard himself suggests (quoted in the book from the FreeReed box set) that it wasn't the original tune for Willy O' Winsbury, but that Andy Irvine put the tune and words together. I've never heard Andy Irvine's version, maybe I should dig it out.

The song was recorded by Sweeney's Men in 1968, when Andy was a member of the group.

The story goes that Andy accidentally set Willy O' Winsbury to the wrong tune, using a Scottish tune called Fause Foodrage (don't ask me what that means though!) - this is the tune used for Farewell, Farewell.

He was apparently copying the tune from a book of Child Ballad tunes, and somehow the page had turned over and he copied out the tune without noticing it was the wrong page (I think the book used numbers rather than titles, so it was probably an easy mistake to make).

So Farewell, Farewell is not set to the tune of Willy O' Winsbury, just the Sweeney's Men version of it, which used a different tune. The Sweeney's Men version should hopefully still be available on CD, if anyone wants to hear it.

Apparently a lot of other singers recorded the song afterwards with the 'wrong' tune, helping to compound the misconception.

I'm old enough to remember Liege & Lief coming out, and I (like many others) thought it was a rewrite of Willy O' Winsbury. I didn't know otherwise until a couple of years ago. But it's a nice tune, so I like to think it's worked out for the best!

I've never heard the actual tune that Andy meant to copy - it would be interesting to hear that, and see how Farewell, Farewell might have turned out  :)

Cheers

Scrump

Thanks for that Scrump,  'Fause' is the Scots word for deceit (false) and I presume Foodrage is a name.

Rory

Sorry for the thread drift  :)

I've just found a song called King O'Luve - Fause Foodrage on an album called Early English Ballads from the Percy and Child Collections (Ballads Reliques) by Hermes Nye. The melody is definitely similar to Willy/Farewell. Would you happen to know the name of the tune that Andy meant to copy? Please don't tell me it was Willy o'Winsbury ...

Sorry to everyone who doesn't find this interesting - I was just replying to the point about Farewell, Farewell / Willy O' Winsbury raised earlier in this thread.

Hi Bob - I believe the tune was one used for Willy O' Winsbury, which, like a lot of old songs, was sung to more than one different tune. And Andy's error means we can add one more!  :)

All I can tell you is that the tune Andy intended to copy (the 'right' tune) was on page 418 of Child vol. 5, and that the tune for Fause Foodrage (the 'wrong' one we ended up with!) was on the previous page (416). So it seems the page had accidentally got turned over and Andy didn't notice at the time. By the time the mistake was pointed out, the album had been issued and it was too late to change it!

Hmm, 'Foodrage' - is that anything to do with Gordon Ramsay?

... I'll get me coat  ;D

Bob - is that recording available on CD? I'd be interested in hearing it.

enough already,this anal ising songs,hey anyone remember richie doing britteny,s whoops i did it again,thats right 35th ann totaly surreal,anyone??

It's part of his "1,000 years of popular music" show and is included on the DVD.

And there's a version (not sure if the same) on the Box Set.  

Best version of "Willie...." is by Anne Briggs, IMHO; the "connotations" referred to as regards Richard- I'm sure are right...anyway, "Farewell, farewell" is a deeply moving song- never mind anyone's own personal losses and grief.

s'funny.  I was just about to say that Peter, I'm in the process of ripping all my CD's to a new MP3 player (don't ask), and noticed Wo'W on the Anne Briggs compilation CD.  Must make a note to listen to it.  Although I'm not a great fan of Anne as a singer, I think that CD is great source material.

I've had a complaint about this post.  It was rude and unnecessary to disrupt a thread when the posters were on topic and discussing Farewell, Farewell.

Start your own thread, Steeley.

Peel

Must be the same CD ("A Collection"?)I've got of her's....I know what you mean; and that music of hers can appear very "stark" as it is mostly unaccompanied. There are several very good songs on it though, apart from WoW- Living by the Water, Go Your Own Way (with, and supposedly about, Bert Jansch), and Blackwaterside. The over 10 minutes long version of "Young Tambling" (i.e. a traditional version of Tam Lin ) is fascinating if a little heavy going on the ears and senses!

Yep, that's the one.  There's so many songs on it that have turned up elsewhere.  It's interesting to go back to a more, "historical", version of a song - sometimes you can really see an evolution thing going on.

Have just put Willy o'Winsbury on, albeit through the tiny speakers on the laptop, and yes, it's indeed the same tune!  Well, there's always been a lot of putting different words/new words to old tunes and/or new/different tunes to old words.  Long may it continue, gives us something to talk about in the evenings anyway!

The tune is also featured in cult Brit horror "the Wicker Man" as an instrumental counterpoint to "Summer is Icumen In"!

AnyHoo getting back to the original point didnt Richardplay this at Crop97 with Simon. Vicki and DM on the Keys. Maybe hes ok playing it but cant bring himself to sing it.

Any way does Richard play much pre solo stuff in his concerts anyway?

Not much. He played Matty Groves in the solo acoustic show he did last Nov.

Genesis Hall has been played a fair bit 'recently' as well...

"Crazy Man Michael" was played on the last solo tour and on the solo tour before that we got "Meet on the Ledge"..

Have seen/heard him play Now Be Thankful as part of a solo set.

He played Sloth solo at a gig in Warwick a few years ago  :o

Wasn't quite as long a version as I've heard elsewhere.

Cheers

Nick

   [;-) This is a query for anyone out there with a deeper knowledge of folk music than me...that's everyone, basically...

   :) I've just been listening to a track by Sweeney's men called "Willie O'Winsbury" - credited to Andy Irvine (no mention of "trad."), which features exactly the same tune that Fairport used for "Farewell, farewell" on the Liege and Lief album - a composition credited solely to Richard Thompson.

  Is it a traditional tune, or is there a more interesting story behind this....? I'm just curious because of the sheer beauty of the music; I'd like to find out more.

                                                   Thanks,
                                                                           Ian  [;-)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_o_Winsbury

HTH

we've had a bit of a discussion on this before see
http://www.talkawhile.co.uk/yabbse/index.php?topic=20641.0

DO pay attention, Ian  ;)  ::)

 Oh...sorry!  :-[

  Moderators please feel free to delete... :'(

  Anyway that was nearly five months ago..... :-\

   Anyway, I've hurt my foot.... >:(  You lot should have more sympathy  :P


     But thankyou for the information!  ;D

Anne Briggs did a great version of "Willie"- on "A Collection"; compilation CD.

she was up to no good with Johnny Moynihan out of sweeneys men at the time

Didn't Bert Jansch or John Renbourne do a version too??

Yep, and Pentangle.

Currently in an intenet cafe that charges by the megabite, so apologies for not searching out the link, but there is quite a good film of Pentangle's version  on youtube that features Jacqui M, Danny T and Bert J. on dulcimer.

here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uNn2TDDru0

Pure singing from Jacqui and Bert playing some hardcore dulcimer there!