TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

This was announced recently.. does anyone know yet when it will be broadcast please??

"Fairport's 45 years will be celebrated on BBC4 later this year" was what I read. Dunno about Croppers footage, but the 5th April Union Chapel gig was filmed for this, 6 camera rig so hopefully a lot of footage from that.

Don't think BBC4 are showing Cropredy, but Sky Arts are showing the highlights on Friday 31st August.

...or at least the Sky version of the highlights. Which are the Bob Harris company highlights. Or as we know it, **** coverage. I have no hopes.

I'm afraid I don't, though I've heard about it too. Please don't let them mess it up - something like this is so long overdue...

I think there was an item a few weeks ago on the official site saying the chaps had been viewing the "draft" version of the BBC4 documentary...

Yes there was..  I'm just wondering if it will be shown before this year's Crop  8)

With  a week to go, it isn't in the schedules.

Don't think there has been a transmission date.
It has been filmed over the last 18 months or so partly interviews at Cropredy and partly at other places.. so it's not necessarily a Cropredy documentary, mainly focussing on the band and it's history.

Or so I have been told  :)

Thanks all...  that's what I thought Jude.

Sounds like it should be a good'n

The transmission date has been announced as Friday 14th September, two programmes as follows on BBC4

 9.00pm-10.00pm  Fairport Convention - Who Knows Where the Time Goes (Documentary)

10.00pm-11.00pm Fairport Convention Concert 2012


Both shows will be repeated at 1am and 2am on the morning of 15th September

Just trying to verify this Symon, where was it announced please?

Tried to check it on the BBC but they online TV schedules are only listing up to 3rd Sept at the minute

that's what I found, and couldn't see it anywhere else..

It's on  digiguide  (TV guide that you can subscribe to and download to your computer)   http://digiguide.tv/

It also lists for the same evening at 11.00pm "Richard Thompson : Solitary Life" (Repeat)

Ah thank you.. couldn't find any trace of it anywhere else..

 :)

Details from digiguide :

DOCUMENTARY: Fairport Convention: Who Knows Where the Time Goes?
On: BBC 4 (9)    
Date: Friday 14th September 2012 (starting in 11 days)
Time: 21:00 to 22:00 (1 hour long)

Documentary following English folk-rock pioneers Fairport Convention as they celebrate their 45th anniversary in 2012. Fairport's iconic 1969 album Liege and Lief featured some of folk music's biggest names - including singer Sandy Denny, guitarist Richard Thompson and fiddler Dave Swarbrick - and was voted by Radio 2 listeners as the most influential folk album of all time. Today, having struggled for years with numerous line-up changes (26 members to date) and shifting musical fashions, these ageing folk-rockers host their annual festival in Cropredy, Oxfordshire in front of a passionate 20,000 crowd. Comedian Frank Skinner, who played the ukulele on Fairport's 2010 album Festival Bell, narrates this tale of the rise and fall - and rise again - of the original English folk-rockers.
(Stereo, Widescreen, Subtitles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Excerpt taken from DigiGuide - the world's best TV guide available from http://www.getdigiguide.tv/?p=1&r=265057

Copyright (c) GipsyMedia Limited.

MUSIC: Fairport Convention: 45th Anniversary Concert
On: BBC 4 (9)    
Date: Friday 14th September 2012 (starting in 11 days)
Time: 22:00 to 23:00 (1 hour long)

A concert to celebrate the 45th anniversary of folk-rock outfit Fairport Convention, filmed in March 2012 at the Union Chapel in north London, only a few miles away from the 'Fairport' house in Muswell Hill where the band was formed during the summer of 1967. Today only Simon Nicol, whose parents owned the house, is still there from the original line-up, but the wealth of incredible songs and arrangements left by former members such as Ashley Hutchings, Sandy Denny and Richard Thompson remains at the core of the band's live shows. This concert's highlights include Matty Groves from the band's landmark Liege and Lief album and Sandy Denny's Who Knows Where the Time Goes, voted 'favourite folk track of all time' by Radio 2 listeners.
(Stereo, Widescreen, Subtitles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Excerpt taken from DigiGuide - the world's best TV guide available from http://www.getdigiguide.tv/?p=1&r=265057

Copyright (c) GipsyMedia Limited.

Great - can't wait for these!

Jules

Fairport? Ageing? Never.

From FC's website

From 21.00 on Friday 14 September, BBC Four will be showing an uninterrupted 6 hours for Fairport Convention/Richard Thompson!

Over the last 12 months, BBC Four have been making a documentary of Fairport Convention "Who Knows Where the Time Goes?" to tie in with the band's 45th anniversary.

2100
1st Transmission - Fairport Convention: Who Knows Where The Time Goes?
 
2200
1st Transmission - Fairport Convention Live in Concert from Union Chapel 2012
 
2300
Richard Thompson: Solitary Life
 
2400
Folk At The BBC The 60's/70's
 
First two items are then repeated (making up the 6 hours)

In case anyone's wondering what happened to the recording of the Sandy tribute show from the Barbican, that one's now scheduled for 9 November on BBC Four.  

Many thanks Philip.

Does anyone out there know how to view the BBC4 programming here in the colonies?

Illegally?

VPN, or just wait for somebody to post the files.

Tiny clip to be seen here...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mmw5v

 ;D

Quote from BBC4 comment 'Today, having struggled for years with numerous line-up changes (26 members to date)'
Doesn't look too promising for the accuracy of the documentary

'Struggling'??

Oh dear...  :-X

From FC website merchandising page

'This is the Fairport Convention 45th Anniversary 'Caricature' Tee Shirt design.

Available in Black, the Mick Toole design has cartoon caricatures of all 25 current and former members of Fairport Convention on the front.'

But wikipaedia shows 26 members in it's timeline but only 25 in the list of current and former members - Timi Donald being the addition in the timeline and omitted from the T-shirt

So it looks like BBC4 does its research on wikipaedia

Ooh!  I didn't know about these tees until now.  I want one!  But, alas, they are all sold out.   :'(

Jules

they sold out at the festival, but they have had more made and they are still available (I think I nearly accidentally bought two while I was checking.... ::))

http://www.fairportconvention.com/catalogue.php?cmsCategoryID=12&DisplayType=DisplayCatContents

Not wanting to get into an argument, but I wouldn't get too het up about the 25 or 26 numbers....its hardly a definition of inaccuracy (if such a thing can exist!).  I mean there are people who have played live on stage as part of Fairport Convention and aren't on the t-shirt and then someone who never played live and never (officially) released any product who is.  It's not exactly 'written in tablets of stone (or 100% cotton)' I don't think...

If you include everyone who played on the Rosie album for example, the numbers increase significantly. Or  Gottle O'Geer for that matter.

And then there's the singers on Danny Boy in the Cropredy Box from 1997. The numbers run in the 1000s!

To be fair, the full sentence is 'Today, having struggled for years with numerous line-up changes (26 members to date) and shifting musical fashions, these ageing folk-rockers host their annual festival in Cropredy, Oxfordshire in front of a passionate 20,000 crowd.'

And they did have many line up changes, many of which are frequently discussed here, not all positively either. Wasn't 1979 supposed to be a farewell?

1979 was the first time that I saw them.. so glad it wasn't farewell in reality!  ;D

Ahh, I see.  The text was a bit ambiguous.  Thanks, Jude.

Jules

Indeed-Timi Donald to me was just a hired hand for the Rosie album. Cathy Lesurf sang a song on Glady's Leap, there have been the occasional added bits by horn players, Anna Ryder on accordion and other instruments, didn't Mark Tucker play electric on I Wandered By A Brookside on XXXV....the list would go on and on....

According to the Radio Times blurb about the Union Chapel show, Fairport will be playing their "greatest hits"!  ;D

Not the medley of their hit?!  ;D

Not bad effort,an hour was not long enough though.

Well in an hour it's difficult to see how that could have been bettered.

A few inaccuracies in the narration, but still pretty good.  Surprised they glossed over the Maart line up quite so much.

And the 'Nine' lineup, but maybe the important stuff was early on and Cropredy, even that misses out the second and third best albums.

Pretty good...smiled all the way through

Very big smile...........

I enjoyed it a lot ;)

I particularly liked Peggy's "I can't believe it's 45 years - it seems much longer" line.

It's good that the BBC woke up to what we all are aware of, and with such a long history they are not going to please us all (and they didn't) but fair play to them for having a go, as someone has already said, it's as good as you could expect in and hour. I don't think it was for me but if it makes more poeple aware of the vast catalogue of fantastic music, more power to them.

On the positive side: An hour long documentary about Fairport on mainstream free to air tv.  This is a good thing.

On the negative: riddled with inaccuracies (and plain falsehoods)...it glossed over vast sections of the history of the band: the second longest lineup in what, 30 seconds?; the Nine lineup barely featured, the RftM lineup in an aside.  It was ok on the first few years and good about the current lineup....everything else...mumble mumble.  An average introduction...nothing more.  A pity - there won't be many more opportunities.

I think the Thomo documentary narrated by Peel (on now) is a much better documentary with virtually the same early footage.

I thought it was a very good attempt to present a detailed story with virtually no source material. Probably the closest they can get to a silk purse given a sows ear.

Though I was puzzled why the Bouton Rouge footage was black and white, when the RT film had the same footage in colour.

And did Frank really say John Lee was "sentenced to life by hanging"?!!

Cheers

Nick

I'm with David, the RT doc is a slightly better telling of the early FC story (with the notable exception that Jude's in the new doc, Iain M's in the RT doc). And the song they chose to represent the Maart era - Travelling By Steam ? Not sure about that one...
I can understand glossing over details to fit into an hour, and that they couldn't bring up everyone on the roll call, but no mention at all of Jerry D, Trevor or Bruce ?
The Union Chapel concert, however, was superb even with a lack of MOTL, and a very nice mention for the Red Shoes of this parish too.
Seeing the RT doc again was very welcome and the much-missed Peel's narration gave it more cred than Mr Skinner. Still alarms me that the programme editors didn't spot Carthy's misquoting of MOTL "too many friends who DIED", especially when 20 seconds previously it cuts from RT himself singing the correct line "too many friends who TRIED" !
Overall, though, an evening of FC-related entertainment is a rare occurrence and a very good thing  :)

Quite enjoyed the Fairport documentary - I wept whenever Sandy sang (how does she still manage to do that to me?!).  I thought the recent concert was OK, though I'd got it into my head that it was to be a Croppers gig, so felt a bit deflated that the likes of Jerry D, Swarb and RT weren't popping up all over the place.  I thought the band all played well (especially Peggy and Simon), but that it was somehow a little flat.  Once again I thought that they're badly in need of a strong and vibrant lead singer.  But some of the playing was absolutely first rate and spine tingling.  And the RT programme was fab, but I remembered a bit too much of it from the previous time I'd seen it.

God but I'm hard to please.   ;)

Jules

PS  Lovely to see our Jude on telly!

not a lotwe didnt already know, quite a lot was glossed over or not mentioned
the nice thing for me was the "the man they coudnt hang" footage in pristine condition, so now we know its out there lets have it released

Amen!

Jules

Well, that was all very enjoyable.  :D. Such a pleasure to see footage of Sandy. The concert was good, although I couldn't help feeling that the singing voices were not in tip top condition...... :-X

My favourite bits of the concert were John Gaudie and Danny Jack's Reward. A bit of a Ric fan? Moi?  ;)

I loved the Richard Thompson prog, because I had never seen it before. Slightly weird to listen to the dulcet tones of John Peel though.  :(

I also watched the programme which followed. This contained clips of Pentangle, Steeleye Span, and Bert Jansch, among others. The best bit was a clip of Richard Thompson. It followed a clip of Donovan singing "Hurdy Gurdy Man". Talk about chalk and cheese............ ::)

Well BBC, you've done it, and now I find myself wondering more than ever why BBC don't do the Cropredy TV coverage. I noticed they even remixed the sound from the Sky footage of Cropredy '11. It did seem a bit odd that an awful lot of history was skimmed over, but the footage used in this program, both new and archive, made it all so worth it.

Am I right in saying that the union chapel was the last night of the tour? I agree that the voices, particularly Chris', were a little bit flat, but then when I saw the chaps at Milton Keynes just a couple of weeks before Simon, Peggy and Kieran were all suffering from the sniffles, so it probably also caught up with Chris, hence why he was avoiding the high notes. Overall the concert footage was also enjoyable.

I stayed for the RT program, which I also found very informative and entertaining.  

I'll risk saying that I do have a direct recording of the digital transmission. (That is the data as broadcast on satellite). However it is 3.5GB.
It looks like it was transmitted at 4Mb/s, which is quite good.

I could encode that to a smaller file, but with a big loss in quality.  

That was the best Friday night's telly ever...

I thought the first programme was fab..  Though wished they had said more about the Maart era,
And that they had chosen one of the rockier songs of Maart's time (I never Did like Travelling by Steam).

The Union Chapel gig was fab, I was very pleased for Red Shoes too that they included Celtic Moon. Made me want to rush out and buy Wintour tix .

Hearing the sainted Mr Peel was lovely.. His voice is very much missed.  A great RT hour.

I had to sleep then.. But the last programme can be watched later today.  All recorded and will be ready to be seen again.

Thanks BBC!

I very much enjoyed both songs!

Jules

Yep, he did.  

And it wasn't the first ever full performance of "Babbacombe Lee".  It wasn't even the first full performance at Cropredy.

I quite enjoyed the documentary despite the errors. It was inevitably compromised by its length. Even It All Comes Round Again missed out a few things and that was nearly twice as long with 25 years less history to cover. The definitive version is still to be made at a minimum of three hours I would guess but I suspect the audience for it would not justify the cost. And that is also why the BBC would never cover Cropredy. It is too parochial and reaches the wrong demographic. Audience figures would just not justify the investment.

Haven't watched the concert yet.

perhaps this was a quip on the fact that he didn't die rather than a mistake

I have to agree with Jules here.  Most of the instrumental work was indeed breathtaking.   However, some of the vocals, and in particular the harmonies, were all over the place.  It won't happen anytime soon, but they do need a different singer from somewhere I believe.

This is my personal opinion.    I'd better get that in, before everyone piles in with hate mail!   ::)

Thought the concert was ok but it confirmed a suspicion about the Union Chapel... I've been to lots of gigs in there and enjoyed them all, I think it's a superb venue ... But ... I've never seen a film from there that's come out as anything other than 'a bit flat'. Probably not helped because audiences are often quiet and reverential - in awe of the building sometimes. It seems that the cameras never quite capture the resulting atmosphere.

Cheers

Nick

Sat through the 4 programmes (two 'live' and two recorded from last night) including the Folk at the BBC documentary with the lovely old footage of earnest types with pipes singing away.  I hadn't seen the RT documentary before, so that was interesting - particularly the honest contributions from Richard and Linda. The Fairport doc was also good in its way, but perhaps needed to be twice as long to do justice to the middle period Fairport and the post 1985 line up with Martin Alcock and DM.  However, as Dan O said, you don't often get a whole evening's Fairport related programming, so I'm thankful for that.

I enjoyed Frank's occasional glitch ('sentenced to life by hanging') he came over as a fan of the band, which can't be a bad thing  ;)

Excuse me while I'm really anal here and list my off the top of my head errors in the programme:

1) see Barry's above (I'm surprised nobody in the band put them right about this...it's there on wiki under Fairport's Cropredy Convention Appearances)

2) Peggy joined in '69, not '70 (It's in his wiki entry and on the FC official page)

3) StdP was not their only TotP appearance (I'll admit I only discovered this the other week when reading about Angel Delight).

4) Frank stated as fact something like 'for the first 5 years after they split up in '79, Cropredy was the only time they played together'...It wasn't - they toured every year in the UK, twice in the US as well as some performances in Europe I think. (again, I find it bizarre this wasn't pointed out.  I often hear this repeated as fact - often by the band members themselves.  Strange.)

5) There was some bizarre linear time confusions caused by the Carthy bit where he talked about listening to L&L with Tim Hart when in Steeleye and trying to convince him how good it was, when according to the timeline as presented by the docu, Tyger hadn't even left Fairport at that point!

If I'd been really paying attention (I gave up a little about half way through) there may have been more.  Does it matter?  I suppose not, except to sad old gits like me.  Does accurate history ever matter?  I'd argue it does...

I think the main guilt though is one of omission...the 1971-mid 90's bands were woefully treated.

As for the recent gig shown afterwards...I was surprised how much I enjoyed parts of it...It's taken me well over a quarter of a century but, at times, I really enjoy hearing Ric play.  I'm afraid I still sort of wish it wasn't in Fairport, but that's my problem, not theirs.  

I feel pretty much the same and know exactly what you mean.

Jules

Interesting though to get the perspective from the band during the documentary that new members are often brought in specifically not to be the person they have replaced, hence Ric's very different style from Swarb's and Chris replacing Maart. Also interesting if a little disappointing to hear Chris admit that he has consciously steered the band in a more acoustic direction and for Peggy to confirm (again) that this is a style that they are now comfortable with. So I guess we can't expect the return of electric guitars anytime soon.

I don't think there's been much chance of that for 15 years really.  Guess we'll have to wait for Fairport to do an 'Albion Band' on us and go all 'Next Generation' before that happens.  I can see that happening somewhere down the line... With any luck someone will wheel me along from the Old Folk's home to see it.  I can wear my my 80's Cropredy t-shirts as a bib....

I might be wrong, but I always thought Ashley was doing double duty near the end of the L&L recording sessions, with SS unofficially forming some time before Ashley's official departure from FC. I'm not sure where I got that impression but it does nothing to lend credence to Martin's memory of that event. SS had already been in official existence (having released HtVW) well before Martin was brought into the fold.
Maybe Martin had this conversation with Hart prior to his joining SS; or maybe the conversation took place long after the release of L&L.

Have to say Ric came across very well, my wife also commented on it, he was very humble, even as a huge swarb fan, I still believe he is an unbelievably good violinist, who brings his own style, and though it is not always my cup of tea, you cannot deny the mans talent. Both times he had the oppportunity he doffed his cap to the superior talents (as he saw them) of Swarb and Chris Leslie.

It must have been the latter, but Carthy said something like 'when I was in Steeleye' which added to the confusion.  The main problem was that it was just shown out of sequence as the narration had Ashley leaving after Martin had joined Steeleye which clearly wasn't right...

Enjoyed the documentary very much.

The Union Chapel gig was I thought very low key - Fairport in all their glory at Cropredy are a powerful musical force still - that gave the impression of a bunch on nice laid back geezers doing a few nice ttons. I don't expect leaping about the stage, that's not what I meant - I trust thought it lacked punch and verve - even in the uptempo stuff.

lords sake gents, it was what it was and none the worse for that. Just nice to see minority music on the TV. Three cheers for auntie beeb!!

It may have been a conversation they both had in Steeleye, and the comment badly edited into the timeline by the makers. Certainly it stood out like a sore thumb as part of "the establishment criticism of L&L"

well said FB :)

I couldn't agree more!!

I'll have to disagree.  Yes it's great to have an evening of minority music on terrestrial TV but we have a right to have it researched properly and delivered accurately.  We get little enough of it, and it's not much to ask.  Anything else is second best.

Same here. If it brings the music to more people then that's brilliant.

Somehow dad managed to watch at his care home.....and thoroughly enjoyed them

I think most likely it is just an example of the fallible memory of musicians, which is a pretty common trait. Probably not limited to musicians for that matter. Who amongst us can remember the exact details of a conversation we had 40 years ago and where and when we had it?

I agree. Then again, as ex member of Soft Machine, he can do little wrong in my book!

He didn't really make much of a contribution to Soft Machine, did he...he's only on the one live album and did a couple of tours in a band that was in it's death throes?

My favourite (by a country mile) Ric Sanders work is Rise Up Like the Sun, which might just very well be my very favourite true folk-rock album (which involves making a possibly strange argument that neither of Fairport's albums 2, 3 or 5 are undisputedly folk-rock and preferring it to L&L)

[Talking of which, it's 35 years since the album was released next year.  Please note, Cropredy organisers  :)  ]

I have to agree.  If they'd only start by turning up Simon's electric guitar a couple of notches.  Peggy still seems game to give it some.

Jules

That maybe so, but it's an album I like a lot - it's a 'live' album, yes, but it's all new material as it was felt recording it live was a good way to get an album of live material out!

Rise up the like the Sun is a fantastic album.

Another fan of Rise Up Like The Sun here, I was singing along to Postman's Knock at Cropredy.  I'm not going to nit pick about Friday's Fairport night, I really enjoyed it all. The Cropredy documentary on Banbury Sound on Saturday was quite enjoyable too.  If this brings Fairport's music to a wider audience,then thanks, BBC4.  Take note Sky Arts.

If I had just stumbled in to this prog as a person who did not know fairports I would have  squirmed at some of the off key vocals not least Peggy on Celtic Moon. The presentation wa really low key and they have indeed become an acoustic band, with the exce[ption of Rics self indulgent solos Soz, i just don't think it did them any favours.
(Gets tin hat.........)

Here's a text I received from a friend (who knows how much I like Fairport but is strictly a Take That girl  :-[) late Friday night:

'Out of interest, I'm watching the Fairport evening on BBC4 - have never heard them before - the upbeat ones are great! Reminds me of the music we heard in Ireland last year. **** (her daughter, 12 yrs old) has just come down the stairs and said "What ARE you listening to??" Can't win 'em all...'

That's about as close to an independent review from someone who's never heard Fairport as I can offer. Reading between the lines, I think my friend is a convert...

 ;D

The day that parents and 12 year olds like each others music will be a sad day. My dad still does the 'is that a man or a woman ?' comment if he sees my old Bowie/Bolan etc when I'm watching them.

A few inaccuracies apart, I thoroughly enjoyed the documentary, particularly the few seconds of my good self in the Cropredy crowd (though looking particularly serious - couldn't have been during a set of tunes ;) ), and I think I spotted Olly just a minute or two earlier (about the time Ralph was singing Around the Horn).  Another hour would have been even better, though.  Of the band, not me.

I also enjoyed the concert, but have to agree it came over a little restrained - but if it gets a few more converts, then that's fine by me.  

There was nothing wrong as such with the concert it was just dull, possibly due to venue, editing and choice of material by the programme makers

Around the Horn? - now that's something I'd like to see Fairport do a new concept album about... I can just see Peggy doing the 'Hello, I'm Julian and this is my friend Sandy' bit (or have I missed something?!)  ;D

Entirely agree about the concert.... sounded dreadful in places.  I don't know what system/formula was used to reproduce the sound, but it was the wrong one! (imho). Couldn't make out much of the instrumental sound....which is always brilliant... because most of the sound system seemed to be focussed on the mics with the singing voices, which gives totally the wrong sound balance, and thus the wrong overall impression.  It certainly didn't do them any favours!...such a shame!   (Think I found a similar thing when I watched the latest Cropredy transmission)  Thoroughly enjoyed the documentaries though, even if, as people have said here, perhaps they weren't 100% accurate....and loved the RT one, as I hadn't seen that before...although perhaps it would have been much improved if they could have stuck in an updated piece every now and then.

Don’t know what I'm doing sticking my head above the parapet but as someone who doesn't really know Fairport, I really enjoyed it.

The only Fairport songs I know well are those written by Ralph.  I have one FC compilation CD and I can't remember what it's called  ::)  Of course as a Ralph aficionado I'm hardly likely to complain about an acoustic set and I'm not representative of the great mass of mainstream so called music fans.  I didn't expect the documentary to be complete, how can you ever squeeze 45 years into an hour, but it's a shame to read hear that there were many inaccuracies.  But back to the concert, I really enjoyed it and we even talked about going to Cropredy sometime ( talking about it is probably as far as we'll get  ::) )
   

Peggy rendition of Celtic Moon put me in mind of Neil Young, which is absolutely fine by me  :)

Indeed it is and I try very hard never to offend anyone on this site but try as I might I cannot make Peggy sound like Neil Young!!

What?   :o

... as in, they both have singing voices that can't be described as mainstream ... ?

Naomi and you will love Cropredy, Carl, and so will the kids. 8 - 10 August next year...

Pegi and Neil are married aren't they?

Blimey, you wait till you get a load of Dylans version  ;D

C x

Or possibly the present fairports are now just dull? Discuss

Oooooo - now that is a hot potato.   I think that I'd have to agree with that statement.  It's five old guys, chugging along, not doing anything vaguely groundbreaking or radical.  They are a million miles away from my listening tastes nowadays.  Having said that, I still go to Cropredy, see them on tours, buy a tee shirt, and sometimes even buy a 'new' cd.

You can't help but love them can you?

well, the tours can be a bit samey at times but at cropredy they are anything but

******g hell that's a bit rude isn't it? Dull? Couldn't you put it more constructively?

Hi Jim. As you know I loved fairports at Cropredy this yr but that was cos most of the time I was watching Pegg, Swarbrick.Nicol, Mattacks, Thompson.
Most reviewers, including those on this site, seem to agree that this yrs Fairports Cropredy set 'dipped' in the middle. That was the bit when the present line up was on stage.

Ok. low key, polite, lacking energy and sparkle and trust me i have loved this band for yrs.

Me too. I don't normally watch them now unless there are plenty of guests in prospect, preferably including Richard T. But what can you do? They are happy with their current style, and if we all carry on going to Crops, they're doing all right I suppose. It's just that "dull"  is such a quality judgement. There's still masses to admire and love about what they do. I agree with what somebody else said, the main problem I have with them nowadays is the quality of the vocals, but that's true of a lot of folk music.

Agreed it wasn't a strong point on that particular showing, but personally I don't think the vocals are weak in the current band. I find the almost total lack of a 'rock' edge to any of the material, and my long held belief that Fairport need a fiddler in the band (not a violinist - I may be wrong, but I think I know the difference!) as much stronger arguments against the current incarnation.

And, I have (I'm sorry to say) used the 'D' word in my own reviews of seeing the current band in concert.  I enjoyed it for a few years after Chris joined (in fact I think I saw about his 3rd or 4th gig as a member), but tbh there's only so many versions of the same 'new Chris song' that I really want to hear.  Sorry.  I've not seen them live since 2009 now... and although I'd love to see them in a little local venue like at Hebden Bridge where they are playing in a couple of months, I'm really not that bothered about it anymore.  Which, given the 60+ (inc Cropredy appearances) times I saw the band from '82-'09 really upsets me greatly.

Sorry about the dull. I suppose what I was trying to say is that I am rarely excited by the present line up. it just lacks attack for me. I have to accept that they are mainly a band in their sixties who are playing gentle mor acousticish 'folk'. Chris writes gentle acoustic songs. People were excited at Cropredy at RT's electric playing cos it had real energy.Of course i accept that the fairport incarnations I have loved over the yrs no longer exist  but I still want to support the band. Every time I go to see them I want to be energised but it becomes a polite, pleasant evening. As a sixty something myself i still want music and stage presence that hits me in the chest ( emotionally ,not necessarily volume). I have seen a lot of bands this yr who have done that.

I love the fact that we can have this debate every 6 months or so!  ;D

For what it is worth, I think they have shifted into tasteful pipe & slippers pleasantness as a live band for the last 15 years or so. I still enjoy them but they do not excite me the way they used to, Festival Bell however was a surprisingly sparky album for two thirds of its length and their best work for a decade and a half, But this is a decision they have consciously taken and are content with. Their age is no excuse as recent experiences of acts of similar and indeed greater vintage has proven to me,

Not rude at all, and i think it sums it up perfectly. I, too, have been a fan for over 40 years now and i cant count the number of times i have seen the band in most of its formats and while the musicianship cant be questioned the show on bbc was edited in a way that left out any spark of wit that any FC show has.
 The current line up has a hit certain groove(or rut) and can't or doesn't want to get out of it.

Agree wi' Jim - the word which came to mind when I watched the BBC gig was "flat".Watched part of it again just to be sure..........wasnae any better. I even played the JBL Live Cd this very evening and it had a bit of spark / balls about it.

If by dull you mean not the same as the lineup you love then yes would be the answer.

If they were truly dull then Festival Bell and some of the arrangements on By Popular Request would not have been as enjoyable. They are not ground breaking but they have not been ground breaking for many many years, even with Swarb in the band, but they can still be an exciting force live, although I admit I have not seen many wintours, well only only one at Crosby since Chris joined, and then I was too embarrassed at hearing my name to say hello.

The new lineup has less bluster and more substance than with Maart, not as fun as with Swarb and less risky than with Thompson but still a whole lot of fun live from the few Cropredy's I have been to. 2011 with less guests and Babbacombe Lee was one of my all time favourites.

Anyway it's only an opinion and dull is a perfectly good word to use.

Neil

A few of our gang commented that Simon seemed to be having more fun at Cropredy this year than he has had for a quite a few years, at both Cropredy and Wintours.

I haven't seen the documentary or the concert yet so I cannot answer the discussion going on about this topic thread. However I have to raise my voice in regards to the strength of the current lineup....yes the lineup that has been together for (depending on when Gerry offically joined) for 12 years now, and something like 16 from when Chris joined.One needs to remember that Fairport has outlasted a lot of other bands during even that stretch of time. I love Fairport Convention, I admire and respect this band and I pretty much love damn near everything this band has ever done, or will continue to do. The marked difference between A Sense Of Occasion and Festival Bell IMHO should prove that this band does still have vitality, creativity, spark, and a willingness to continue making great music. So now the doubters are probably going to say, ok but I really dont like this or wish they would play more electric, or wish they could be like this lineup or that lineup....all fair points. People seeing the Nicol/Pegg/Sanders/Allcock/Mattacks lineup probably had the same nostalgic longing for the Swarb/Nicol/Pegg/Rowland lineup.....and on and on back into time to the original lineup. There has never been a band with as much story behind it as Fairport and I have never waivered in my admiration and liking for every era, this one being no exception. During moments like this I go back to what Simon himself said in the It All Comes 'Round Again documentary in his description of the Swarb/Nicol/Pegg/Rowland lineup. He said there were lots of critics around at the time who knocked it for being a bit slapdash, and a bit carefree. His answer was-"we made lots of friends then...we made lots of good music too." Thats the same now as it was then as far as Im concerned. As Al says its a continuing discussion and I say this only to put my two cents in as well.

Spot on. The comparison with the Tippler's tale line-up had also occurred to me, since that was my first Fairport.* What rattled my cage about the dull debate is "Or possibly the present fairports are now just dull? Discuss" sounds to me like a personal attack on the individual people rather than a critical commentary on the musical direction. To use the modern expression they are what they are. It's (a very little bit) like calling Dylan "Judas" for going electric. That's what they do now, if you don't like it it's your problem, not theirs. Having said that, if they felt the need to get Rebecca Lovell and Rosie Carson in to liven things up I would be the first to applaud a bold new change of musical direction. Or Carly Frey.

*And why don't they do Jack O'Rion or John Barleycorn now?

Gerry joined in 1998.

2008 Wintour. The stage lights dimmed, leaving only Chris in the spot.There then followed a truly amazing performance of Reynardine, which was repeated at that year's Cropredy I think. Spine tingling to hear Sandy's song so well treated and coming out of nowhere, to coin a phrase.

I have never enjoyed Simon's WKWTTG and cringe to hear Fotheringay. Please leave her songs to a female guest.

The new verse of Reynardine was especially wonderful!

I'm not sure I agree about Sandy's stuff.  Sometimes hearing a male voice doing it stops the whole thing turning into a bland tribute show.  Who's Sandy today, then, kind of thing....  I don't know.  I've heard some great female guests doing great versions of Sandy songs.  I've also, at times, really enjoyed Simon singing them.  What really gets me is when people get too reverential about her material.  That's what I enjoyed about the recent tour of her material (and what a lot of people didn't like).  Do it different, do it interesting.  It won't always work but sometimes it will... and it worked well enough on that tour to keep me interested at least.

Or at least leave them to Chris.  I agree about his Reynardine.  Superb.

Jules

I am minded of the comment Leland Sklar made during an interview about the James Taylor / Carole King reunion a few years back - "just cos we're quiet don't mean we're mellow".

Past Fairport's seem to fit into this for me - not out and out rock heavy but definitely with an edge to them - now I would say they are both quiet and mellow, reflected in the Union Chapel gig.

Does it work for me - not entirely
Does it work for others - clearly
Does it work for the band - obviously.

At the end of the day we as fans have a choice, and if enough people support the current FC way of doing things then why would they bother to change their stance.

DW

Thanks for the correction...in my head 12 didnt sound right. So 14 years then.

I came into Fairport late (as I've said in other thread, Fairport had already been going 27 years by the time I was born), and so the first time I saw/heard Fairport 8 years ago they were into the current line-up. It wasn't until later that I went back to listen to the classic Fairport repertoire, and it is clear that the band's strongest material does come from a time when they were more electric. Full House is my personal favourite record from the band, not only because the material from it was strong way back in 1970 with that particular line-up, but also because much of it has been played live by the current band and still sounds just as strong. I don't think that they have lost any of their edge as performers. They are seriously talented people and continue to move forward, expanding their repertoire whilst still looking back and using that classic material, and it's up to them how they choose to play it.

"Fotheringay" is my favourite track from the "Fairport 45" album, by a country mile.

Simon's Who knows.......and Crazy Man Michael were unexpectedly (to me) good. His voice is better (to me) when he doesn't force it. Didn't go much on Foth. But taste is taste. Reynardine excellent.


But when oh when are they going to do 1. Jack Orion 2. John Barleycorn?

...sorry cant read back all the posts in case this has been said earlier but at the beginning of the documentary are they not strapped in the van? Do you have to be in that type of van?

Great programme, enjoyed it.  8)

They're in, or near their sixties.
I for one am happy that they are still around, although the "spark" which made them into what they are and what we love them for, was utterly magic and one-off and Very Special Indeed.

Since then, they carried on that torch and they do it with dignity and style and if their current style is what THEY are happy with, so be it.
We can yearn for a different approach, well ... we have the albums, the memories, and Cropredy of course which is where that "spark" sometimes returns to.

Sure I've had my moans about the current line up. But they are still around and they represent something allright. Now be thankful!
 
For my money's worth did a really good album recently. Long may they continue. If that's sometimes with sonic comfy slippers - so be it. They'll always be my favourite band bar none. But that's a band which was (nearly) always more than the sum of its parts. They will not shake the music world any more - get over it. But they've earned those laurels a long long time ago.
Off my soap box  ^-^

And I liked the BBC4 programme. Loved the doc, despite the few inaccuracies, but they only had an hour, they couldn't possibly fit everything in.
Instead they focussed on a few things, which is one way to do it.

As for the concert, loved the setting, the way it was filmed, and the very fact they were on national TV at all.
Did the gig itself blow me away? No, it met an expectancy.
But I had the lights out, I had a good glass or two of Grand Marnier, and it felt good to see that band -wonderful players all- up there for a half million viewers. AND they did Fotheringay. And I was proud for them, too.  ;D

Thanks Koen.  You have expressed my feelings very well there.

And are they too comfortable?  I don't think so.  A band that was cruising into old age wouldn't keep on rearranging their back material so creatively, or keep searching out new material.  Sorry for those who miss Metal Matty, but that was a looonng time ago now too...

Koen, you've taken the words out of my mouth. Thanks for posting these thoughts.

I was at the gig and, even from the audience, I found it offputting to have cameramen running up and down the aisles and poncing about at the foot of the stage - so maybe it threw the band a bit.
One woman got up and complained about the disruption but was quickly hounded back to her seat by a production assistant. Not like she'd paid good money to see her favourite band, or anything.
Plus it's a gig in a church building, so that's another factor.
But having said all that, I thought it was a great gig, with great performances all round.
The other gripe about the venue is that there are no readmissions - so no nipping across Upper St for a pint in the interval. Grrrrr.

I'm pretty certain it was advertised from the off that it would be filmed wasn't it?

Jay, if you read my comments as a 'personal attack' you could not be further from the truth and we obviously haven't met. I am actually quite upset that you could read my comment in that way. It is my opinion. That is what this forum is about. Fairports do not excite me like they did. I did find the bbc concert 'dull' cos it didn't hold my attention. By all means disagree wity me but don't misquote/misinterperet me.
Chris singing Cell song was stunning.
 Incidentally my wife would have my bits if I ever said anything against Chris L.

I think that when you know your subject well just about *nothing* on television comes over as researched and delivered properly. For example I live in the area where they did the Olympic cycling races, and you'd be suprised at how many times the commentators were quite lost... Here they are coming through [somewhere about 5 miles away] sort of thing, and don't get me on the subject of boats...

Jay, if you read my comments as a 'personal attack' you could not be further from the truth and we obviously haven't met. I am actually quite upset that you could read my comment in that way. It is my opinion. That is what this forum is about. Fairports do not excite me like they did. I did find the bbc concert 'dull' cos it didn't hold my attention. By all means disagree wity me but don't misquote/misinterperet me.
Chris singing Cell song was stunning.
[/quote]
I certainly didn't misquote you, sorry if I misinterpreted you but there you go. I took "the present Fairports" to mean the individual members of the band. To say that they are dull implies that they have a problem, where it might be that particular members of the audience have a problem of not liking what the band does now. We have had good punch-up very interesting discussion. Good stuff

I am tired of listening to these old platitudes condeming the band ..
You want a heavier rock facade .. they brought you Excalibur
You want the old line ups they brought you John Babbacombe Lee
You want a new vision .. Fairport brought you Folk Rock .. its something you can only do once (There is no new folk rock)

Stop condeming an excellent band who put together a yearly tour and an annual Festival .. Which other band does this with such style and enthusiasm .. Tell me ?? because I have yet to meet them

I was quite pleased when one of my daughters around that age said she liked my Pink Floyd!
It was about the only musical point we had in common, loathing everything else the other liked.

Mine too. What is it about Chris that the ladies love? I think it might be his hair. On the other hand Mrs B can't stand Ric. Finds his court jester persona very irritating.

I am in the same boat as some of the younger people on here in that I became a fan of the band only recently. I've seen then twice on recent wintours and twice at Cropredy. I'd say Chris is one of the best songwriters the band has had - 'My Love is in America' is a beautiful song. As most of you will know I'm a huge fan of RT but see him as quite separate from Fairport. Personally if Fairport recruited a second guitarist I wouldn't be so interested in them - I like the softer approach that Chris has brought to the band. If I want something heavier I'll stick on some RT. So I don't have any complaints about the Union Chapel gig. Sounded fine to me but agree with whoever said that they probably weren't as relaxed as they normally are due to the film crew.

Long may they convene!  8)

I think everyone is entitled to their opinion of the band and, for such a long serving band that has brought us many and diverse styles, we are all bound to have our favourite era and styles as well as those we don't enjoy so much. That must be our perogative, as being a fan of anything surely doesn't mean blindly accepting and applauding everything someone does if you don't really enjoy it, but it doesn't stop you from being a fan .

If I may take anology many of those who post in the Arms about sport frequently criticise the current line up/form of 'their' team. Does it make them any less fans? I think not and am sure that any follower of a rival team saying the same thing would get an ear bashing. It's the same with bands.

TAW prides itself on allowing everyone to have their opinion and allowing healthy debate - please let's keep it that way.

Thanks Sandra.
All I asked was if people thought the bbc4 gig was dull. I didn't say it was, although bits were and Peggy did a song no favours. I have followed this band for over 40 yrs. seen some great gigs, seen some so so gigs, seen some poor gigs and watched a tv concert that I was dissappointed by. This was the band who through Sloth and Sailors life turned me on to fok/rock and influenced 40 yrs of my music choices, introduced me to folk, folk clubs, taj mahal, robert johnson , john martyn, nick drake, IBS etc etc .I could go on. I criticise one concert  I didn't like and ........ Thanks any way.
 

Well said, Sandra.  

There is nothing remotely akin to anything unpleasant in the thread that has led to this place - in fact it is all affectionate, friendly and tempered with praise, even the constructive criticism...

I would say up till and including Jewel in the crown, I had blind devotion to this band, and I still find it hard to believe swarb, ashley, sandy and richard can do any wrong (I wonder why Ian Matthews is never in that group because his was the last concert I saw which was faultless), but the last few years I find I am no longer inspired by the output, everyones opinions will differ obviously and in hindsight, each person I have listed has done some tracks I would find it hard to support, but the recent output has in my opinion lack the fire and originality of some of the previous work, after 45 years, some of which I wasn't even alive any band would find it difficult to maintain these standards and we are all getting old, and some of my support may have wained due to my own desire to not be connected with something comfortable and lacking the passion of youth, but I at only 41 could be described in that way.

I really hope you meant ISB rather than IBS although all that beer and curry ...  ;)

It's the other way round with me - my kids often say 'What's that terrible row you're listening to! Turn it down!' - their tastes are pretty 'middle of the road' really. Where did I go wrong?

Nothing to disagree with there, except that I wouldn't "blindly" go and see Fairport every other week, or encourage Chris Leslie to tackle Maddy Prior before slamming the song into the back of the net in the grudge match that is Fairport  F.C. vs Steeleye Span, or Albion Albion.  No matter what the line-up.

It's not often that you get a review from somebody who's musical taste doesn't extend folk rock and has never heard Fairport.

However a friend of mine came home last Friday, turning on the television and saw that there were programs about Fairport Convention. He had heard about them, because they are often mentioned at the pub.

He was very impressed by the Union Chapel concert, despite the rest of us protesting that it was good, but not their best. He insisted that as a live performance you very rarely see musicianship like that and as a man who would normally avoid folk music, he enjoyed it.

So maybe the problem with Fairport celebrating their 45th year, is that we have 45 years of performances to compare with.

That's pretty good. It's an extraordinary thought. How many gigs is that? How many picks, strings, pints? I was astonished and humbled when Simon said in the documentary that he was 21 when he first left FC, and they already had a distinguished history behind them.

My sons were brought up on FC music.. And hated it once they reached the age of 'cool'.

Yesterday my d in l told me that they watched some of the programme.. And Andrew said to her
 "Don't tell mum".

She has met Maart  but was really surprised to see him on telly...
"I didn't know he was in the band" she said!!

Our sons were also brought up on FC[the first gigs they attended were inutero]
One loathes and detests them and has done since his teens and the other loves them to bits[those of you who know us will guess who that is ;)]
However, the non FC fan will always let us know if he sees anything about them so we don't miss out be it gig, tv prog or an article somewhere :)

As you can imagine, we are having a similar discussion on the FC list... I think this above is a very good point so can I post it there Colin? I will of course say that I got it from TAW, and will or won't mention it came from you, as you prefer.  Or would you prefer me not to at all?

Edit: No problem, whatever Colin

I watched the FC doc, and enjoyed it. Also watched the RT doc, which I thought was much better, a really good effort, and nice to hear the voice over of the music loving John Plee.

I didn't watch the concert. I enjoy them at Cropredy, but really only when they play the (very) old songs or have some guests on. The 2011 Babbacombe Lee recreation was great fun.

As mentioned above in the thread, the "problem" they have is the 45 years and also the brilliant back catalogue. They are judged by very high standards, which were set by FC themselves.

Yeah, I always loved John Plee.   ;D

Jules

I know, I always think of him that way. I realise he didn't start every one of his shows with "good evening, the music loving John Plee here..........." but he did it often enough for it to stick.  ;D ;D

Well spotted. Since i have suffered both over the yrs...............

It's as if the wonderful Sandra 'landlady at arms', had poured some Gaviscon down the neck of the discussion, isn't it Dave?   ;D

Chris made the most telling statement in the doc. "Fairport have never sought to hang on to a sound for the sake of hanging on to a sound".

If the band still played the same stuff they played in the 60s and 70s sounding exactly as they did in the 60s and 70s, they would have disappeared into obscurity a very long time ago.

Not sure this really makes sense as they never did have a 60's and 70's 'sound' - they had dozens of them, which is exactly the point Chris was making...but, imho, (virtually) all of them were fab.

Where the argument falls down is that since 1985 (after holding the previous 4-play 'sound' for the best part of a decade) they've only really had 2 (or variations on 2 - the Maart era had a much wider variety of sound than the Leslie one).  

Personally, I think Chris's argument is right for the first third/half of their career. What, of course, kept things dynamic was the instability of the personnel in the band.  Keeping the same lineups (and sound) for 11 and then 14/16 years is both a sign of great success and stability, but also a very strong (I'd argue a killer) argument against Chris's thesis.  Great for the sound.  Bad for the business side of things, I'm sure.

It's a real Catch 22.  Personally, I'd love them to mix things up again.  They won't.

Agreed on both counts.

Just having Jerry Donahue back on board letting rip on lead guitar would be a decent start.

Jules

Sorry, that doesn't make much sense as is...I mean for the 'Great for the sound.  Bad for the business side of things, I'm sure' bit to come after the second 'kept things dynamic' sentence.

A reconfig of Fairport to match the "Hand Of Kindness" sessions would be welcome, RT and friends ripped up the night at Cropredy and I know that many would pay good money to see that lineup who might not fit the "folk/rock" description of the current lineup's audience.

Many would  :)

At various times there have been bands (RT Band, Albion Band, Sandy) with far more key Fairport members in them than Fairport had at the same time.  Doesn't make it Fairport though, does it?  Unless they want it to, of course...  

Fairport Confusion, indeed.

 I finally got around to watching the documentary last night: What struck me was the immense charm of the individual members, their lack of ego and the obvious mutual support and inspiration they get from each other. I can't think of many (any?) other acts who have created such a strong sense of themselves, former members and dedicated fans being part of one big extended family - and that isn't meant to sound sentimental or remotely pejorative; it was the true, strong feeling that I got from watching them  [;-)

Good points well made, and all to their good.

There's the balance to the other points being made, I think.

Jules

Can't see that this has been mentioned elsewhere, so I'm resurrecting this thread just to give a quick heads-up that both the documentary and the Union Chapel concert are being repeated this coming Friday (August 2nd) on BBC4 from 9.10pm.

Well done Ian.  :)

Excellent timing BBC!

Might have a bit of a pre-festie evening.... Get some 6x in, under cooked fish & chips, and sit on my camping chair in front of Mike so he can moan at me being in his way!!  {:-)  [;-)

Bridge, I'll be round to barge past and slop beer and curry sauce over your picnic blanket/carpet at inconvenient points throughout the evening, just to enhance the atmos. ;D

Love it!  ;D

Get the domestos out Bridge.... a bit of mixing with gin and vodka (Plus a dash of 5 spice) and we can have practice at the toast  :o

Yeeuughh! I'm sticking with Jaigermeister for the toast this year  ;)

Phil bought a bottle of something from Lidl today that can go towards the toast too -though I was quite looking forward to having some of the fig liqueur I brought back from Malta.

it's meant to be horrible Ancient!

I've not been myself, but I've heard that Malta isn't that nasty Bridge. ;D

The documentary gets three airings this weekend....

2110 on Saturday
0110 on Saturday night/Sunday morning
2345 on Sunday night

Not sure about the Union Chapel gig though